Monday, May 4, 2009


Okay, okay. I am not exercising restraint here and am jumping the gun so to speak, but after acquiring the actual 9 page document and reading it, I had to point out this one quote. The entire report is found HERE and the quote is from page 4 under the heading, Economic Hardship and Extremism. "Antigovernment conspiracy theories and "end times"(emphasis mine) prophecies could motivate extremist individuals and groups to stockpile food, ammunition and weapons. These teachings also have been linked with the radicalization of domestic extremist individuals and groups in the past, such as violent Christian Identity (emphasis mine) organizations and extremist members of the militia movement. "

Oh brother, or sister, who would have ever thought that by preaching about the Rapture and 7 years of tribulation that I'd be motivating extremist individuals to make provision for an unprecedented time of global upheaval. Especially when I preach that Christians WILL NOT BE HERE.

My second point concerns the reference to "violent Christian Identity". I sure hope the BI crowd does not start using violence. This would just make reading articles too confusing. I mean, how would we be able to tell the difference between "Christian Identity" and "Baptist Identity". But on a serious note, I am just not sure that the writers of the report understand what true "Christian Identity" really is. If that were the case, they would understand that "violent" is not a modifier of true "Christian Identity". Our Leader, Jesus Christ, was not violent though he died a violent death at the hands of violent men. Our Leader, Jesus Christ through Paul, taught us to pray for our leaders, not destroy them. But thank God that Jesus Christ is coming back. He, Jesus, will do battle with the government of this world. We will not have to avenge ourselves for he himself will avenge us. So pass all the laws you want, but understand, our Lord Jesus Christ is not subject to the laws of man. And make no mistake, he is coming back and this time, it will not be on a humble donkey but instead upon a battle horse.

More to come, Lord willing, as I continue to read the Napolitano Report.

***UPDATE***(5/5/09) The Domestic Extremism Lexicon which was revoked can be found HERE.

***UPDATE***(5/14/09) The DHS has pulled the report referenced. You can read about it HERE and HERE. My link to the report still works at the time of this update. Props to Kim for the heads up.


Kim said...

So far, so good, Luke. Thank you for taking the time to read the report and give us your thoughts on it. It appears that pastors are one of the targets, as the report states that TEACHER'S of end time prophecy are to be considered "suspect". Oh brother is right! Oh BIG BROTHER, lol.

You can also sign a petition or two calling for the removal of Napolitano. The ACLJ and both have them circulating. (They also have more insight into what this report means for Christians)...

God bless you, and I look forward to reading more from you on this.

Byroniac said...

Luke, your quote is for the most part simply a statement of fact, based on the idea that beliefs have consequences and therefore govern behavior. I'm not saying that their conclusions are necessary, or that they are the only logical ones. I'm just saying that the conclusion is logical, especially based upon history (Waco, for instance), and that is what makes it so unfair to believers like us (hopefully this is not intentional, but because of ignorance).

Christian Identity is capitalized that way in the report because it is an actual racist organization known for violence and propaganda. You did not say one way or the other anything about this organization, but you did correctly infer "guilt by association" and stated mistrust of devout Christians. It is sad that Christians can be both hated and feared, when in actuality, we are not the ones who are dangerous.

Luke said...

My plan is probably going to simply be, start at the first and work my way through. This report does not bother me that big brother is watching. I'm gonna trust that my Father has big brother under complete control. But yes you are right. This is just more of big brother, large government or socialistic fascism. They all are pretty much the same thing today.

Luke said...

Glad to see ya dropping in. I do not share your sense of gratuity in addressing them as ignorant as opposed to intentional. I am firmly convinced that they are being led about by our Chief Enemy and I am just as convinced that they despise true Christians as much as we despise The Accuser. I am not one real big on conspiracy theories but I also believe one simply needs to read the history surrounding the rise of Hitler to see that history is repeating itself before our eyes. It has been Satan's plan since the beginning to attempt to set up a world system opposed to Christ. The book of Daniel illustrates that quite plainly. I just do not see them as ignorant of their own devices.

One thing for sure, this ought to cause us to check our baggage that we do not practice guilt by association either. And it is indeed sad that true Christians should be hated or feared. But again, I am reminded that there is a chief architect behind their hatred and fear. This truly is war. But war of the spiritual kind. Thank God that we have spiritual armor for the days that are ahead.

I'll also have to research that CI group Byron. I was not aware of the distinction. Thank you for that info.

Byroniac said...

Luke, I used to believe like you do, but I am no longer Dispensationalist, or even Premillenial. There's no doubt in my mind that Satan hates Christ and all those that belong to Him, but keep in mind, he is a defeated foe. Matt 12:29 KJV says, "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

I am not sure what you mean by "set up a world system opposed to Christ" in Daniel. Matt 4:8-9 says, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." Also, 2 Cor 4:4 says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" So I have to believe that a world system opposed to Christ already exists, or at least did at the times these verses were written. Also, I cannot help but see the final, glorious victory of Christ (already accomplished because the Resurrection is in our past) when I read Hebrews 12:2, " Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

We have all reasons to praise God and glorify our Savior!

God bless.

Byroniac said...

Luke, I have reread my initial statements and they seem condescending in the words "I used to believe like you do". I truly apologize to you; this was a poor choice of words on my part. Your view is just as valid as mine, only I no longer hold your position.

I didn't want to get off-topic into eschatology. I just wanted to comment on the idea of a world system opposed to Christ (I do believe in the fact of its existence). And I am not sure I expressed myself clearly, but many people (in government included) have a wrong impression of Christianity from falsely so-called Christians (i.e., Christian Identity, etc.) who are willing to express their beliefs with violence and propaganda. If we had no government restraining this racist madness, there is no telling how hellish things could be with these sorts of bigots in charge. That is sort of my thesis on the matter, I guess.

selahV said...

Luke, great post. My Big Brother is bigger than anyone else's big brother. Therefore, like you, I have no fear. However, the report is, in my opinion, exactly as you see it--a piece to instill suspicion upon Christians. The world at large does not differentiate the "Christian Identity" group from those who identify themselves as Christians. That is why we now have legislation in the form of a Hate Crimes Bill. Wonder why they didn't include Christians as being those who face hate discrimination? selahV

Luke said...

Please trust that I perceived no malice from you. In fact, if you were to try to be condescending, I would be giving you the benefit of the doubt anyway. So I did not take offense to what you wrote nor am I offended by such.

I do disagree with your eschatological position and would be willing to engage a post where this is discussed. My reference to the book of Daniel was specifically to the Colossus of Nebby's dream interpreted by Daniel. But we can discuss that later.

But we are in agreement that people have a wrong impression of true Christianity. I just happen to believe that many of those that do, do so willingly and not out of ignorance. But boy, that CI group sure seems to give us a bad name. That makes me less likely to see the BI title as positive but since I do not know how it originated, whether as a pejorative or what, I'll refrain from using it.

I look forward to "fighting" with you about eschatology.


Luke said...

Mrs. V,
I too like you have wondered at the double standard that attacks upon Christians are not considered as hate crimes. Though I confess, I understand why the legislation does not include attacks against us. It is because "their" father is different from "our" Father. Else, they would obey our Father. But their deeds expose them for who they are.

All of this sure reminds me of my reading about the rise of Nazi Germany. It just "seemed" to happen and the people followed it. Kind of like today I suppose. But I do acknowledge that there are fringe groups with whom I do not agree with their tactics and their ideology. However, the "revolutionaries" of 1776 were considered to be of the same sort of rebel rousers as well. It serves to underscore how importantly vital that having wisdom from above is. We do indeed need the mind of Christ to live boldly and wisely, yet harmless as doves.

Byroniac said...

Luke, I'm no longer really Baptist, but I can see Baptist Identity as being a positive term of identification with Baptist theology (and particularly ecclesiology). It should not be used as a perjorative, I realize (of which I've probably been guilty in the past), but as a theological label when accurately defined.

And I appreciate the interest in eschatology, but I'm not really ready to debate anything at the current time. I believe that Dispensationalism is wrong on certain points, but one very good feature of that system is the supreme reverence given to God and His Word, which is something I certainly agree with and appreciate. I'll also say that I bought all of the Left Behind series of books (the adult series), read them all, and enjoyed them for the story (I think that Jerry Jenkins is an entertaining storyteller, and I enjoyed his writing). Maybe I'll be ready to debate you in the future. ;)

Byroniac said...

Luke, I am wondering because of Romans 13 if America should have even rebelled against England in 1776. We were certainly wrong here in the South to do it in 1861. What's done is done, and I don't profess to be supremely knowledgeable about the American Revolution, but I really have to wonder in light of Romans 13: were we justified?

Luke said...

To be totally honest, I can more easily defend the war of the South than I can the Revolutionary War. I have tried on many occasions to reconcile Romans 13 with 1776 and this country being built upon Biblical principles.

First, the most strict application of Romans 13 would mean that ANY new governments formed would be out of line. However, that would contradict the history of the Bible in which God raised up country against country to chastise the rebellious and to accomplish His purposes with His people Israel. At least in the days of Israel, they had prophets of God who plainly declared when it was time to fight and when it was time to yield.

I believe that is why the 1776 group of visionaries sought to use so much of the Bible to undergird their actions. That they were seeking Divine approval is very clear and that they believed they were acting with Divine approval is apparent.

The War of the South, while instigated by one issue, was really about one principle instead, State's Rights versus Federal Government. The right of the individual states was clearly within the view of the framers of the US Constitution. Thus, the South and its governments did have a leg to stand on in opposing an oppressive government.

Obviously, I am a small federal government states rule themselves kinda thinker. The Fed is to promote justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, general welfare and secure liberty. If this were actually the case, our Fed would not be nearly as large and intrusive as it is today. I think the visionaries of 1861 understood that better than they are given credit for.

Now having said that, I do not believe in any sense that we can set up some kind of Christian Utopia through human government. But that does not mean that I believe Christianity should not be involved in government. I think the worst thing that happened was when the modern interpretation of Separation of Church and State was adopted and the removal of anything Christian from government was begun and still continues today.

Romans 13 does have its limits. You and I understand I am sure that we cease to obey government WHEN it tells us to do something contrary to the Word of God. I think the larger import of what Paul is referencing is that God is to be obeyed no matter who is in charge. Consider Joseph, Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah and Mishael who all were tested by leaders but who became leaders in the end under despots for rulers.

So, it is fair to say I haven't worked it all out yet. But I do believe that God can raise up a government to oppose another government. But it is oh so necessary to be sure that when that happens, in the act of opposing, justice and truth must still prevail no matter who the opposition(fleshly of course).

If you can make anything of my ramblings, glean what you can.

Byroniac said...

Luke, I agree wholeheartedly with your distinctions concerning Romans 13. I do believe in separation of Church and State, but not the modern interpretation of it which seems to state that the two are mutually exclusive (no reason to uphold that view in my opinion). I do like how you use the Hebrew names of Daniel's three friends and not their Babylonian names (which for some pesky reason seem more memorable, and I honestly do not know why).

Kim said...

Latest Update on Extremism Report:

Now, there’s a report this morning in the Washington Times where DHS Secretary Napolitano tells lawmakers that the offensive report has been pulled from the DHS website and is no longer available. She told lawmakers that the report is in the process of being “replaced or redone in a much more useful and much more precise fashion.” You can read the Washington Times story here.

Napolitano told the House Homeland Security Committee: “The wheels came off the wagon because the vetting process was not followed. The report is no longer out there," she said. “An employee sent it out without authorization.”

Here’s what else Napolitano told members of Congress:
“Some things in my initial days have gone very well at the department, some things have not. And that was probably the worst thing. It was not authorized to be distributed. It had not even completed its vetting process within the department. It has been taken off of the intel Web sites and the lexicon that went along with it was similarly withdrawn. Neither were authorized products, and we have now put in place processes. And it turned out there were really no procedures to govern what went out and what didn't before, and now there are.”

Luke said...

Thanks Kim. I updated the OP to indicate what you have shown here.