Wednesday, May 20, 2009


The NBC Today Show featured an interview by Matt Lauer of conservative Michael Smerconish and Katrina vande Heuval of the liberal Nation magazine. The conservative/liberal descriptors were taken directly from the video description for this particular interview. This interview was talking about the Republican Party's effort to remain relevant and Michael Steele's leadership in that party.

During the interview, Heuvel makes the statement that the Republican Party needs to become a more tolerant, modern, diverse party. She continues in her assessment that every demographic group is fleeing the Republican Party except for weekly church goers and that group, she states, will not make a party. She goes on to state that the Party is in trouble and that it needs to be a more modern, tolerant, opposition party.

Oh yeah. That is what the political arena would like isn't it!? They want us "weekly church goers" to abandon our ideals, adopt their own and sing Kum Ba Yah while the USA, and the world for that matter, continues in its downward moral spiral. Just in case Heuval has forgotten, the presidential race was nowhere near a blowout for Obama. It was a narrow majority win with an emphasis upon narrow though the majority vote went his way. This Republican Party is not as far gone as Heuval would have us to believe and the Republican Party is not as ready for liberal/moderate socialism as she would wish us to be.

This Country, the United States of America, was built firmly upon Biblical, Judaeo-Christian principles and ethics and can only continue its supremacy, whether financially, socially or militarily, as it remains devoted to those tenets.

No Heuval. The problem is not weekly church goers. The problem is those, such as yourself and your radical Nation, who would eradicate the values and tenets of those weekly church goers.


Byroniac said...

I could be mistaken, but that's not my impression of things. Yes, they want to eradicate our values. But I think they're not emphasizing that so much as they are the idea that church-going conservative Christianity is irrelevant, and that, in order to survive, it is time for the Republican party to reformulate itself to include a much broader agenda and social ethics. To be honest, I expect such to happen eventually, and I do not think God is particularly worried about the Republican party or America, and that is what truthfully frightens me to the core.

Luke said...

If removing church-going conservative Christianity is not an attempt to eradicate our beliefs by hoping to make them irrelevant to a party, then I would ask, what is all the hoopla about. If our ideals are solid and conducive to a strong societal culture, than why try to change the Republican party? What is happening is that the liberals are trying to scare the Republicans into "kicking" us out so that the Republicans will not profit from such a large voter base in the next election. And why would they do that? Our morals and ideals convict them of their ungodliness.

I do not share your sense that God doesn't care about our country or the Republican Party. Quite the contrary, I believe God cares about us a great deal but is very disappointed in the direction we have chosen to take. But whether the Country or Republican Party returns to Biblical principles and morals does not cause my faith in a benevolent, loving God who is jealous for righteousness in all levels of societal life to waver.

My venture into politics here will probably continue to be the mainstay for awhile as I address what I would consider to be absurdity on behalf of those being led by our common enemy to push in a direction diametrically opposed to Scripture as well as the Constitution of the United States.

Thanks for dropping by and leaving a footprint.

Byroniac said...


I think there are two words that best describe our situation: minority status. Our influence and our numbers are shrinking. The so-called "Moral Majority" has been shown to be more myth than a force with which to reckon. And, I'd say it's safe to say that we are the only ones who believe our ideas and ideals are conducive to strong, societal culture. In short, those who oppose us believe they have better ideas, worthier ideals, and better research and planning to get there (wherever "there" is, and I hope we never get "there"!).

I also do not believe, as you put it, that "our morals and ideals convict them of their ungodliness." I think that very seldom, if ever, happens, because part of what that requires are shared elements of a common world view. Truth be told, I think we are looked on as backward and anti-progressive, with perhaps a not-so-friendly heap of scorn and ridicule as well thrown into the mix. If anything, we frustrate progress in the world (Amen!), and alienate unbelievers who cannot share our agenda. Romans 8:7 ESV comes to mind, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

And I didn't mean that God has no concern whatsoever about the USA or our political party. It's just that I believe the healthy and vitality of this American nation and the Republican party may not be required for the progress of God's plan, or may even be excluded in God's plan. I hope not, but I wonder. Unlike you, I do not think God is discouraged by the turn of events and the choices of people here in this nation, because even our increasing ungodliness could be a sign of divine judgment, God taking retribution on rebellion. We've been sowing wild oats for a long, long time.

We could talk about Romans 9:22-23, but I just wanted to throw the verses out there. Romans 9:22-23 (ESV) says, "22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--"

God's ultimate plan I believe is based upon His people for His own glory. We are believers who happen to live in America and belong to the Republican party. We are part of the Universal Church of God. Our citizenship is in heaven, and is not shared with any allegiance here on Earth (in the spiritual sense only), but we are also earthly citizens of our respective governments according to Romans 13. So we are obedient to the proper authorities, and even pray for our leaders and the welfare of all our citizens, and most of all, that God might be gloried and His will made manifest and accomplished in Christ.

I know, I think a little bit differently about these things. But I enjoy reading your blog posts, and I find we do not disagree nearly as much as we emphasize different aspects of the truth I think. Take care and God bless.

Luke said...


It's pretty interesting to read our views here. I think the underlying difference would be our difference of opinion about reformed views more or less and that, I believe, to some degree bleeds over into our view of eschatology which does tint how we view world events as well.

To split a hair, I used the word disappointed rather than discouraged. Disappointment has more to do with one who is saddened at a series of events or a particular event. Discouraged is when one thinks it will not all work out. I don't think God is ever discouraged. His Decreed Will will always be accomplished. But I do think there is a measure of grief that He experiences when His creation continues to rebel against the mercy and love He has shown throughout the generations.

Back to our government, I agree with you that wherever "there" is, I am sure I wouldn't like the main dish they will be serving. But I trust that God is more than able to keep us even in a "foreign" state, whether spiritual or physical.

I do not share your opinion that the "moral majority" is a minority. I look at the past election as simply being a vote against someone in particular rather than a vote for something in particular. Which is why many that voted for the "yes we can" are finding out that that was simply a campaign slogan and actually has no substance to it. The whole goal of the governmental thrust is to move toward a socialistic state with a desire to raise the lower to the middle and lower the upper to the middle. Somebody has to work and once the money from the rich has run out, this country is going to experience the likes of England who is about 10-15 years philosophically ahead of us where the tax rate is near 65%. Just learned that yesterday.

Wish you well this weekend. I am hoping to complete my healing from a 3 week bout with bronchitis.(No I don't smoke and never have.) Just couldn't shake this one without medicinal intervention. The medicine, needless to say, would ban me from professional sports. But is does appear to be helping.


Byroniac said...

Luke, I stand corrected on disappointed versus discouraged, because I was thinking more in terms of discouragement for some reason. You cleared that up for me, for the most part. I have to amen your last sentence concerning divine grief. Amen!

Byroniac said...

I forgot to wish you a speedy recovery! What medicines did you have prescribed for bronchitis? My supervisor at work has this, too.

Luke said...

I got a shot the size of a roman candle, in my butt. Just a little sore today but it is working. It was a steroid of some sort. I was also put on an inhaler called Symbicort. I take two puffs, twice a day. The only negative symptom I get from the meds are the shakes. So I've taken many walks since yesterday morning. I probably will not remain at my desk past 11AM because of the way they are making me feel right now. I just have to get up and be busy. It was described that this is what people who get caffeine highs feel like. I really don't like it but it is making my breathing so much better. They also gave me a "rescue" inhaler in case I have another asthma attack. It is simply albuterol and it'll give you the shakes too. Hope your supervisor will visit the doc. Bronchitis is usually easily treated.

selahV said...

Luke and Byron...loved reading our exchange. I agree with both of you and I'll let you figure out what I agree with. :)

I read an interesting article today when I googled mainstream thinking. seems MEDIA folks aren't quoting research from the left think tank organizations as much anymore. they are leaning toward more conservative and conservative right groups to quote. As well as centrist groups. That's what Obama did in the election...most thought he wouldn't rule left, but more to the center. joke's on them.

We needed a good dose of the stupids to wake everyone up. when the all wake up, they'll need someone to comfort and console them and the Christians will be here with open arms to help them.

We're coming to the end and I don't know whose eschatology I'm believing in, but I'm sure longing for Jesus. selahV

Byroniac said...

SelahV, Amen. I know God has to open people's hearts to be receptive to anything we as Christians say, but I believe He also gives us wisdom that can confound the "wise" as He leads us. I thought I had eschatology all figured out---wrong---but did figure out a major piece of the puzzle. Christ is coming back again! I'll let you know if I figure out any of the details. ;)

Luke said...

If either of you need help in figuring it out, I'll be glad to impart my God-given knowledge to you. I know, I know, that sounds kinda arrogant. But I'm on a lot of meds and have an excuse right now to be so. I can claim I wasn't in my right mind.

Seriously though, I see no way around a 7 year literal tribulation and Jesus returning after that tribulation and a 1000 year millenial reign after that time. I am definitely in the premil camp and believe that the literal fulfillment of God's word would lead to such. It does not scare me if I am wrong about the rapture though. The God who can take me out can see me through.

But with the two of you I heartily agree, Jesus really is coming back and the only reason he has delayed is because of his longsuffering. I'll be posting another original piece pretty soon. Actually, that will probably only occur after I have gotten past this crud and have come down from the meds.

Byroniac said...

Luke, you said you had another original piece coming out soon on your blog here. Because you opened your last paragraph with thoughts on the Second Coming, is that what the new original piece will be about? I'm not sure what I am any more, exactly, except I have to be honest enough to say I am not premillenial. I think a person's eschatology depends on the foundation of his or her understandings of everything else in the faith, from soteriology all the way up to the pattern of prophetic fulfillment, all interpreted by the underlying hermeneutics and presuppositions we bring to the text.

A mistake somewhere can be compounded into a divergent eschatological view I'm finding out, which is probably why I've changed my mind on this issue so many times: I think I've been just about everything, even a borderline postmillenialist (and I keep coming back to panmillenialism: it will all "pan" out in the end).

I think we're supposed to study, and grow, and learn about this issue. For me, though I have strong opinions about this (and other things), I realize I could be wrong. And I haven't studied enough.

Luke said...

You are correct. I want to post a little on eschatology partly stemming from our conversation though I believe I understand ahead of time that you are currently reluctant(which I do respect) to engage the conversation on that topic.

I believe that our eschatology does impact how we view current events and even how we are to understand and interpret current events. I may not be successful but that is the approach I am attempting with my next post.

However, as I stated earlier, it may be a few more days as I try to shake the crud I have been fighting now for 4 weeks. It seems that something else has attached itself to my body and my already weakened immune system is quite flustered. Nevertheless, the doc is optimistic that I'll be doing better in a week. I am hoping for quiet nights without all the cough. My wife would appreciate that as well.

I hope SE Texas is good to you today. I have not forgotten that I'd like to meet you over there for lunch.

selahV said...

Byron...I have a few things that come to my brain with end times. Things are going to get worse before it happens. I may or may not be alive when Jesus comes back. And no matter what happens I am to "Fear not." So, that's what I do. Fear not. Share Jesus, and yearn for His return.

Luke...I can hardly wait for your post. Maybe I'll be able to understand your explanation. I sure have trouble understanding other folks. I was reading about how Jesus doesn't pray for anyone but His own in John 17 and not the world (the lost). But I have my own understanding of that too. And it just doesn't square with a what I read. So, I look forward to you getting well and giving us what the Lord lays on your heart. selahV

Luke said...

Mrs. V,

My take on John 17 is a little different as well. The "his own" he is primarily praying for is his disciples and not all believers. He does eventually get to them, those who will believe because of the work of the disciples, but John 17, as I see it and have discussed with others before is mainly Jesus prayer for the 12 minus Judas so really, just the eleven.

selahV said...

Luke, that is how I read it, also. thanks for one validation. selahV

Luke said...

You need validation other than me???! :) I thought what I said was the Law of the Medes and the Persians.

It indeed is difficult for all of us to read and understand apart from our presupposed theological constructs. But that indeed is our own personal struggle. To seek Christ and let His word shape us rather than our understanding shape him.

Wishing you a bright cheery day.

Byroniac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Byroniac said...

Oops. Had a typo.

Luke and SelahV, I forgot to add a little humorous thought while ago. Rev 21:1 is one of my favorite verses in eschatology, and in the ESV it says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." Praise God! I will never have to eat seafood again.

selahV said...

Byron, I thought of that verse too in this conversation. that's why I wonder how "green" we need to be, even though I think it is important because all the honeybees are dying.

If you don't like tomatoes and you don't like seafood...??? what do you like? selahV

Byroniac said...

Well, I know I like cheeseburgers, french fries, chicken McNuggets, and burritos. I'm sure if I give it some more thought, I can add to the list (I do like fish, especially fried, but grilled and even baked is good, I just prefer non-seafood food). Basically, if it's healthy I don't like it, and if it's credo-baptized in grease and deep-fat fried, or just unhealthy in general, I love it. I'm trying to eat a lot healthier, though, for health reasons.